tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post6057778790200814044..comments2023-10-16T07:13:12.123-05:00Comments on A plain blog about politics: Pardon ThemJonathan Bernsteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15931039630306253241noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-73532135883106956512012-12-30T00:03:02.440-06:002012-12-30T00:03:02.440-06:00Well pre-emptive pardon of his predecessor worked ...Well pre-emptive pardon of his predecessor worked so well for Gerald Ford.<br />There's not much point in a truth and reconciliation show when you've already pardoned everyone.<br />Are you really sure that torture stopped when Obama took office? Or is the President allowed to pardon himself as well?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-67129233325133022262011-08-18T14:32:59.340-05:002011-08-18T14:32:59.340-05:00I'm going to copy the html for this post and t...I'm going to copy the html for this post and the other and save them until enough Americans come to admit to themselves that torture is always wrong and a crime that has to be punished whenever it happens, because until that occurs, torture will continue to exist. When they do, and establish a museum (whatever that means at the time) to document prevalent attitudes about torture in the first decade of the 21st century, these posts and comments will be there. I guarantee it, even if I don't live to see it.Mark Ericksonhttp://norwegianshooter.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-38492194937595806652010-02-12T14:00:47.559-06:002010-02-12T14:00:47.559-06:00Jonathan,
I don’t know how to feel about your pos...Jonathan,<br /><br />I don’t know how to feel about your post -- appalled, befuddled or nauseated. Have you no moral compass? Or is it that it all boils down to convenient political calculus? A pardon, “graciously offered” or not, is absolutely the worst thing that Obama can do. The issue is not whether there should be prosecutions, there can be NO questioning that, since the president and the nation are legally obliged to do so. The issue is, rather, when. Think about the real implications beyond the tenuous argument that such prosecutions will bog down the administration. What possible standing can we have in dealing with nations like Iran, China or North Korea (for a short list) if we say, oh, we know that torture and murder were committed, we know that war crimes were perpetrated but never mind. Now that’s exceptionalism in it’s most repulsive form. Do you think that by pardoning criminals we will enhance our standing and make our work in the international arena easier? The future implications are enormous because if even Obama is willing to pardon crimes against humanity then what goodwill can ever be expected from others or what leverage will any president have on moral grounds? NONE. Think about the real implications man! How do you tell a child or a young person that it is imperative that in a nation of laws we are to respect and observe the law when in fact it’s application and enforcement becomes conditional? Better yet, if the rule of law is to be thrown out the window then let’s empty out our prisons since the law is just a huge sham and those who observe the law suckers. Absurd!<br /><br />Assume for a second that blanket pardons are given but an international war crimes tribunal is set into motion with clear indictments rendered. So, do we extradite the indicted or not? If we do we’ll have the same supposed turmoil that we’d experience with domestic prosecutions, and if we don’t we are once more flipping the proverbial birdie to the international community. As Andrew Sullivan likes to say “sunlight is the best disinfectant.” <br /><br />I would not want to be in President Obama’s shoes, he inherited a mess from hell, but he must do what is right. Granting pardons would be cowardly and criminal itself since it would implicitly be condoning criminal actions. Jonathan, whether 6 or 6 million are tortured or murdered the law is the law, or would you have given Nazi criminals “gracious pardons” as well. Disgusting! <br /><br />Gil A. Maduro, Jr.<br />New York CityGil Maduronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-45620701712559731372010-02-12T12:06:34.142-06:002010-02-12T12:06:34.142-06:00These are among the worst political crimes ever co...These are among the worst political crimes ever committed by American elites in the modern era. <br /><br />This was not just abuse and torture - this was the deliberate murder of hundreds (that we know of) helpless captives. <br /><br />You are correct that it endangers Obama's presidency, but not in the mere political way that you suggest- it undermines the very idea of the presidency. <br /><br />If Bush and Cheney can torture people to death with impunity and the support of most of the American people, we don't really have a president; we have a lawless dictator- yes subject to election- but utterly lawless nonetheless when in power.<br /><br />And if that's the case, it changes the whole political idea of America. For many of us- especially those who understand the fragility of democracy and the sweep of history, there is no more important challenge facing Obama, and it's one that he is utterly failing to rise to, and the longer he fails, the less legitimate are his claims as a democratic (small d) president. <br /><br />Everything else boils down to mostly money, while this topic is a threat to America itself. <br /><br />I can make a solid case for Cheney in the dock, but I wont right now.....Brave Captian of Industrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-91957362543421995722010-02-11T22:52:30.055-06:002010-02-11T22:52:30.055-06:00On distracting the agenda: I think you underestima...On distracting the agenda: I think you underestimate the extent to which a serious media circus surrounding the president can be a distraction. Sure, Obama wouldn't personally be involved in the prosecution, but if it gets to be cabinet level or higher (and possibly not even needing to be quite that high) it's going to be the biggest political story out there, and the White House is going to have to devote serious resources to managing the spin war over it. Plus, think about how skittish Congress can be; a media circus over torture trials would be a great excuse for the Blue Dogs and others to put aside legislating. <br /><br />As for changing the GOP's position: all I can say there is that IMO prosecutions are certain to harden their pro-torture position, while pardon-plus-commission supports those within the party who would prefer to be anti-torture.Jonathan Bernsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15931039630306253241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-30674896869281231952010-02-11T21:52:07.281-06:002010-02-11T21:52:07.281-06:00*Disregard the "They will stand by the belief...*Disregard the "They will stand by the belief that" part. I was doing too many things at once and forgot to finish my thought...Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13754260184799589938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-85443639764806062442010-02-11T21:49:43.802-06:002010-02-11T21:49:43.802-06:00I guess I disagree about how much the agenda will ...I guess I disagree about how much the agenda will actually be slowed down if prosecutions were to be sought after. At the beginning of the administration all we heard was that if we "look back" it will cause a partisan split and the Republicans won't cooperate. Well, we have decided not to prosecute and the Republicans still won't cooperate -- on anything! If they aren't going to cooperate in good faith, why not follow the law? Also, Obama can still go about his domestic agenda -- it's not like he will be directly involved with the prosecutions. He should do the right thing and hand them over to the Justice Department.<br /><br />I also disagree that a commission will change the GOP's stance on torture. They have dug themselves in on that issue and I don't see them relenting. I can't see the GOP ever admitting that what we did was wrong. They will stand by the belief that Sadly, my own congressmen, Aaron Schock, came out in the open and admitted that he was basically pro-torture. In the future, a president won't decide not to torture because he's afraid of a commission.<br /><br />Ultimately, though, I think all of this political/policy talk cheapens the torture debate. The law is pretty clear -- there is no excuse for torture and there are no excuses for not prosecuting people who broke the law. If not now, when?Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13754260184799589938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-81486339282039288442010-02-11T12:37:30.637-06:002010-02-11T12:37:30.637-06:00Aaron,
You are certainly correct. And yet...what...Aaron,<br /><br />You are certainly correct. And yet...what would you have Obama do? What I think one has to realize is that there are real choices to be made, that Obama can't have everything. Prosecutions *would* take away from other items on the agenda, and those items are mostly not choices -- ignoring them will harm his presidency.<br /><br />I didn't make the case above, which is really about Obama's choices, but I have in the past, that pardon + prosecution is also the only path to turn the GOP away from torture in the future. Prosecution won't do that; it will lead to hardening of the GOP's pro-torture position. For those who really care about the issue, I think there's a very strong case to be made for pardon + commission instead of prosecution. Granted, it won't put people in jail, but it has at least the possibility of returning the GOP to the civilized world on this issue. Of course, the biggest variable there is what George W. Bush would do, but at least pardon + commission makes that a variable; prosecution is certain to keep him silent and/or pro-torture.Jonathan Bernsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15931039630306253241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-24790306196344046442010-02-11T12:17:17.798-06:002010-02-11T12:17:17.798-06:00My problem with the "there's a lot of oth...My problem with the "there's a lot of other stuff to do" argument against prosecutions is this: When is there not a lot to do in America? I think that is recipe for immunity for government lawbreakers.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13754260184799589938noreply@blogger.com