tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post5743515728081769418..comments2023-10-16T07:13:12.123-05:00Comments on A plain blog about politics: Hey, Reporters! (Birther Edition)Jonathan Bernsteinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15931039630306253241noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-11782777088872239952011-02-16T12:43:46.572-06:002011-02-16T12:43:46.572-06:00... continued ...
And the reality also is (imho),...... continued ...<br /><br />And the reality also is (imho), that “Constitutionalist Birthers” now make up the largest percentage of birthers. <br /><br />So, although they do believe Obama was born in the US (or, at a minimum, don’t care where he was born), they respond to pollster questions on the issue by saying “no” – he wasn’t. Because the pollster’s not asking the “right” question for them – so the only way that they can respond to indicate that they don’t believe he’s eligible to be President is to say “yes” to the questions regarding place of birth.<br /><br />4. The “I hate Obama Birthers.” Similar to your “no one really believes this stuff” – category, there is a substantial group that just hates Obama. They don’t really believe any of this “stuff” (though they find the “Constitutionalist” argument very compelling), but they hate Obama and are willing to perpetuate the myth in the hopes of turning more people against Obama.<br />---------------------------------<br />If a pollster wants to understand the phenomenon of birtherism, s/he will craft a poll asking something like “Do you believe Obama is a Natural Born Citizen?” – with a follow-up series of questions as to why – to get to which particular theory the person has bought into. And for those who say they believe he was born in Kenya, a follow-up series of questions directed at the various theories relating to that claim.<br /><br />I strongly suspect that a “properly” phrased poll will show that the majority of birthers now are “Constitutionalist” Birthers and/or “He’s gotta be hiding something” birthers.tesibrianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-4561638168359879462011-02-16T12:42:46.582-06:002011-02-16T12:42:46.582-06:00... continued ...
3. The “Constitutionalist Birthe...... continued ...<br />3. The “Constitutionalist Birthers.” These are the most under reported group – and, I believe, have made up the largest percentage of birthers for about a year now. (To be sure, many “Constitutionalist Birthers” also believe that “he’s gotta be hiding something” – but they do not believe all the various conspiracies, and generally do not believe he was born in Kenya or became an Indonesian citizen.)<br /><br />In brief, these birthers have co-opted Tea Party calls to return to “constitutionalism” (obviously, as they define it). According to these birthers, the term “Natural Born Citizen” as used in the Constitution meant that the President must be born in the US – to US citizens. They contend that at the time of the Constitution, the applicable “rule” of citizenship was that one obtained their citizenship from their parents. They cite selected publications and selected pre-1898 case law to support their argument that “Natural Born Citizen” means born in US to US parents.<br />Based on that principle, their argument is, essentially, as follows: (1) Although Obama was born in Hawaii, he is not eligible to be President because he is not a “Natural Born Citizen.” (2) He is not a natural born citizen because he was born a UK citizen. (3) Under UK law at the time of his birth, a child born to a UK citizen was a UK citizen, even if born elsewhere. (4) Therefore, Obama was a UK citizen at birth. (5) Therefore Obama is not a “Natural Born Citizen.”<br /><br />The reality is that the “Constitutionalist” argument has dominated the birther legal cases for the past year. In fact, there were several birther cases that focused exclusively on this argument. This theory is very attractive to Tea Partiers because it has many parallels with (and borrows from) the Tea Party’s general anti-immigration stance. So – it fits within their general view that children born in the US to “foreigners” should not be US citizens. If you look at state legislation, you’ll find that the same representatives introducing “birther bills” are also introducing “no birthright citizenship” bills. And, if you look at state birther legislation, you’ll find that may (though admittedly not all) such bills contain this “Constitutionalist” component.tesibrianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-28624026431377402522011-02-16T12:42:01.233-06:002011-02-16T12:42:01.233-06:00.. continued ..
2. The “He’s gotta be hiding SOMET..... continued ..<br />2. The “He’s gotta be hiding SOMETHING” Birthers. These birthers don’t necessarily believe all – or any – of the various conspiracies. but they don’t trust Obama at all and they just can’t understand why “Obama keeps hiding all his records.” If he was born in Hawaii, why not just produce the original birth certificate, they ask. They believe (incorrectly) that he’s spent “millions of dollars” to seal his records and the fact that he “just won’t produce” it makes them believe that there’s something wrong with it. <br />If and when a state passes a birther bill requiring submission of a certified Certificate of Live Birth, and when Obama produces his (as he will, if required), these birthers will be satisfied that he was born in the U.S. But – they still won’t trust him and they still won’t like him. They’ll still believe that he’s hiding SOMETHING. <br />...tesibrianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-77684503329801782072011-02-16T12:41:26.528-06:002011-02-16T12:41:26.528-06:00As I said over on the TNR posting ... I’ve followe...As I said over on the TNR posting ... I’ve followed the birthers since June 2008. I closely followed all 70+ birther cases nationwide and read every single birther pleading; I followed all the main “birther” websites and discussion forums and have followed all state “birther” legislation. With that background, I think the “birthers” (and those answering polls) can be fairly categorized as follows:<br />1. The “It’s a Conspiracy” Birthers. These birthers believe that there has been a massive cover-up. They believe it started in the mid-2000s or possibly earlier, but they do not, by the way, believe that there was a 50-year conspiracy. E.g., they don’t believe that the HI birth announcements were planted 50 years ago. They believe that the birth announcements are FAKE – that they were inserted into the microfiche of the newspapers around 2007 or so. The theory goes that “experts” have examined the microfiche at multiple US libraries and every single set of microfiche shows signs of tampering.) These birthers, like 9/11 conspiracists, have an ever growing list of “evidence” to prove the conspiracy. As noted above, they believe that the HI birth announcements are fake and were planted in the 2000s. They believe that the COLB is fake (and that FactCheck.og conspired with Obama to dispel the doubters). They believed (and some still do) that the two demonstrably fake “Kenyan Birth Certificates” are real. They believe the edited tape of Obama’s grandmother (edited to say that he was born in Kenya) is real and that the full tape (showing she didn’t say that) is a fake. They believe that Lolo Soetoro adopted Obama as a child, making him an Indonesian citizen. They believe that he went to college as a foreign (Indonesian) citizen. They believe that the Obama administration has “intimidated” federal judges to dismiss the birther cases and that Obama has spent millions of dollars to hide his records. Every month or so, someone makes a new “BREAKING” discovery related to the conspiracy. Some of their theories directly contradict each other – and birther claims. (For example, one theory is that the reason Obama is “hiding” his real birth certificate is because it shows that Frank Marshall Davis is his father. Never mind that that would make him a US citizen regardless of where he was born ...) And, just as one “conspiracy” gets debunked, they come up with another one. For example, in 2009, just as it became clear that one of the “Kenyan” birth certificates was a fake, another one appeared and these birther set out to prove that it was real. <br />....tesibrianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-24265013241371681452011-02-16T12:37:25.641-06:002011-02-16T12:37:25.641-06:00>First, relatively few people, even those who f...>First, relatively few people, even those who follow politics closely, are aware that anyone has suggested Sarah isn't Trig's mother.<br /><br />I agree. Most liberals I know, though they have no love lost for Sarah Palin, would look at you like you were insane if you suggested such a thing. Sullivan's own guest-bloggers have pretty much said he's off his rocker about this (and that's not to mention that he isn't really a liberal).<br /><br />I do agree, though, that polls like this tend to exaggerate the amount of true believers. It's a little like <a href="http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7712/3121/1600/non-seq-970522.1.gif" rel="nofollow">this cartoon</a>: there's a natural tendency for people to go into absurd territory if prompted. If you polled Americans with the question "Is Barack Obama a Martian?" I'd wager you'd get a significant amount of respondents saying "Yes" and an even larger number saying "I don't know." I think there may even be a term for this effect in polling science.Kylopodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06932528611103718373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-81150177542095333852011-02-16T11:36:47.076-06:002011-02-16T11:36:47.076-06:00Obama did release the official Hawaiian certificat...Obama did release the official Hawaiian certificate of live birth. It's the same thing I use, and my kid uses, to get a passport. <br /><br />End of story. Case closed. There's no there there.Blue Galangalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-14030830831536426132011-02-16T08:12:43.724-06:002011-02-16T08:12:43.724-06:00@Anon, multiple:
I don't think your Trig anal...@Anon, multiple:<br /><br />I don't think your Trig analogy is a good one for the point you're trying to make. First, relatively few people, even those who follow politics closely, are aware that anyone has suggested Sarah isn't Trig's mother. To the extent liberal leadership has any thoughts on this at all, my sense is most people think Andrew Sullivan needlessly damaged his credibility by chasing down that rabbit hole. <br /><br />By contrast, everyone is at least vaguely aware that Obama has been accused of being born in Kenya. Moreover, if true, the Obama birther rumors would have stark policy implications: the current President of the United States would be serving illegally. If Bristol or someone else were Trig's mother, it would have no policy implications whatsoever. The 9/11 truther stuff is a much better comparison although it is flawed for reasons illustrated above and many more.TapirBoy1https://www.blogger.com/profile/11327586630549189956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-73980378039403438642011-02-16T06:50:50.986-06:002011-02-16T06:50:50.986-06:006. When a pollster calls up and gives someone a c...6. When a pollster calls up and gives someone a chance either to say something bad about a politician they dislike or not, a good number of folks are going to take the opportunity to register their dislike of the guy even if they don't really believe the specific "charge" being polled. (I hope to God this is what was happening with all those polls saying so many Dems thought that Bush knew in advance about the September 11th attacks.)Pseu.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-41244236901300825142011-02-16T06:14:39.943-06:002011-02-16T06:14:39.943-06:00Last night on AC360 I learned that some birthers w...Last night on AC360 I learned that some birthers want to retroactiverly change the definition of natural born to mean only people who have two natural born parents. Several past presidents would now be ineligible to have held the office. And many Americans would suddenly realize they're not natural born citizens either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-43038382110929979582011-02-16T04:08:44.651-06:002011-02-16T04:08:44.651-06:00The PPP didn't provide regional breakdowns on ...The PPP didn't provide regional breakdowns on the birther question (or anything else). I'd be interested in seeing these - I remember a poll from a year or so ago that showed that belief in birtherism (or maybe it was the Muslim libel - same difference) was <i>overwhelmingly</i> a Southern phenomenon. Like, maybe 5% in the Northeast, 5% in the Midwest, 5% in the West, and 60% in the South. Wonder if those shares have shifted, & if so how.Basilischttp://www.none.chnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-59139486600662315742011-02-16T02:07:49.040-06:002011-02-16T02:07:49.040-06:00(6) Not everybody feels the need to be particularl...(6) Not everybody feels the need to be particularly honest or thoughtful when talking to pollsters. Birtherism resonates because it is an extreme expression of some widely held Conservative anxieties--namely, that Obama is scary because he is Not One Of Us (black, Muslim antecedents, Northern liberal, cosmopolitan, etc). The question that is actually being answered is "how do you feel about Obama?" Big surprise, activist Republicans really hate and fear him.sfphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05486914956769777149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-34101848460508680082011-02-15T20:36:56.789-06:002011-02-15T20:36:56.789-06:00You citing Charles Johnson is akin to me citing Pa...You citing Charles Johnson is akin to me citing Pat Caddell and Doug Schoen. <br /><br />Obviously, liberals regard the two guys as jokes even though both are Democrats. Am I right that you don't take Schoen and Caddell too seriously? Or how about Greta Van Susteren?<br /><br />In other words, Charles Johnson to us is what Caddell/Schoen are for you. They'll tell you that you guys are the ones who have taken the party too far to the left.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-40306836009189432332011-02-15T20:15:53.575-06:002011-02-15T20:15:53.575-06:00"Actually, you guys aren't laughing. You ..."Actually, you guys aren't laughing. You claim to be laughing but then your side expressses outrage at the results."<br /><br />No, I'm pretty sure I know what my thoughts about this news are far better than you do, and they are pretty much mocking...well, "derision" is too strong, but something like that.<br /><br />Some liberals, I'm sure, disagree. And I'm sure many of the ones who are outraged (or can suitable feign outrage) have platforms from which to express their outrage ('cause let's face it, outrage sells). But don't confuse their opinions for the opinions of all- or even most!- of liberal, or leftists, or whoever "you guys" are in this case.Colbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14262426400735202537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-1963491924800571652011-02-15T19:38:14.838-06:002011-02-15T19:38:14.838-06:00Anonymous, here's Charles Johnson, one-time ri...Anonymous, here's Charles Johnson, one-time right wing blogger, who bailed on the movement when it went nuts: "It’s official: the loons really have taken over the GOP."<br />http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/38087_New_Poll-_51_of_Likely_GOP_Voters_Are_Birthers<br /><br />Johnson is still conservative. He simply decided a couple of years ago that he was not willing to be a fruitcake. And now he writes about the movement with the deep understanding of an insider who got out. This was a very good recent post:<br />""Persecution politics" is an excellent way to frame what's happening in the GOP and the right wing these days, and I'd like to bring up another important factor that helps make persecution politics such an effective defense mechanism: tribalism. Not just the atavistic racist tribalism of a small section of the far right base, but a new kind of widespread mainstream tribalism enabled by modern technologies." <br /><br />http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/31/the_amazing_self-reinforcing_paranoid_rube_goldber/wvnghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01458454606280403087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-2636340073824647262011-02-15T19:21:04.987-06:002011-02-15T19:21:04.987-06:00WNVG,
Actually, you guys aren't laughing. Yo...WNVG,<br /><br />Actually, you guys aren't laughing. You claim to be laughing but then your side expressses outrage at the results.<br /><br />Trust me, when someone eventually polls the "Is Palin Trig's mother" question and it shows that a majority of African-American Democrats believe the answer is no or undecided, you'll have a different reaction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-38152133369042064442011-02-15T19:13:07.952-06:002011-02-15T19:13:07.952-06:00Birtherism is the shortest distance between two po...Birtherism is the shortest distance between two points -- Obama and the White House gates. <br /><br />All we need is one good lawsuit, and the Supreme Court can once again rescue our Republic from the consequences of its irrational insistence on elections.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-24737523031141603212011-02-15T19:07:38.188-06:002011-02-15T19:07:38.188-06:00Anonymous said: "some people love talking sma...Anonymous said: "some people love talking smack about someone they hate and are willing to tell a pollster something they don't believe if they believe it will embarrass someone they hate." I do find that to be a fascinating response. This doesn't embarrass Obama. This embarrasses republicans. It rightly makes them the subject of ridicule. <br /><br />I understand that the highest calling for many on the right is to poke liberals in the eye with a sharp stick at every opportunity, but this doesn't make us angry, this makes us laugh at you. Like Palin, it is a joke.<br /><br />A more interesting question for me is "How many of the 70% of republicans who say they only watch Fox for "news" actually do." And, if it is actually that high, then why do the TV ratings show a much smaller audience than that.wvnghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01458454606280403087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-63685557979425152422011-02-15T18:40:33.173-06:002011-02-15T18:40:33.173-06:00Every time another question is added to a poll the...Every time another question is added to a poll the cost goes up. Polls rarely explore what people think in any depth. If someone wants to pay for such a poll, I could think of many more interesting issues than birtherism.<br /><br />I voted for Obama, but many would call me a 'birther'. I think there must be a reason that Obama has been unwilling to open his original birth certificate to public examination. I would answer 'I don't know' to the question of where he was born.<br /><br />Once a reporter asked Robert Gibbs why Obama wouldn't release the document, and his answer amounted to 'because he doesn't have to.'David Tomlinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-83115180076401648962011-02-15T17:44:59.152-06:002011-02-15T17:44:59.152-06:00Anon@5:04 = weird.
So, you birthers have moved on...Anon@5:04 = weird.<br /><br />So, you birthers have moved on from saying Obama was born in Kenya? Yeah, "Hussein" is an all-purpose name; it's such an accurate indication of where someone was born.<br /><br />/sarcasmKaJohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11043005602676549904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-36302307780919121832011-02-15T17:37:58.509-06:002011-02-15T17:37:58.509-06:00I'm going to say that the comments (so far) ar...I'm going to say that the comments (so far) are evidence in favor of my point: we don't know, and it would be nice to find out.Jonathan Bernsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15931039630306253241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-14713078253568639862011-02-15T17:27:07.361-06:002011-02-15T17:27:07.361-06:00I think Anonymous 5:04pm is right.I think Anonymous 5:04pm is right.Glenn Becknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-11801904312263350522011-02-15T17:17:48.408-06:002011-02-15T17:17:48.408-06:00I think Kal and bbebop are on the right track here...I think Kal and bbebop are on the right track here. There are obviously hardcore birthers in the GOP -- but this is mostly just an example of the “screw you” partisanship that’s become all too common today.Couveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00926561539205771774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-65322480571523090282011-02-15T17:04:47.342-06:002011-02-15T17:04:47.342-06:00I think you are more likely ignoring the real stor...I think you are more likely ignoring the real story.<br /><br />Obama is not african. He is Indonesian, pretending to be black to gain political support. As a devout Indonesian Muslim, he and his secret supporters are trying to turn the country into an extension of the Caliphate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-49945873440985862512011-02-15T16:51:46.954-06:002011-02-15T16:51:46.954-06:00The truther polls you're quoting are misleadin...The truther polls you're quoting are misleading as well. There is an attempt to conflate two groups: people who thought 9/11 was a government operation (the truly crazy and a very small percent) and people who thought that Bush knew that an airplane hijacking was imminent but did nothing about it (which is much more reasonable criticism - although I believe still unfair). Don't fall for it, there was never ever even a moderate percentage of democrats that believed that the government blew up the world trade centers.Joshuanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6926413038778731189.post-74791616959968071302011-02-15T16:44:52.923-06:002011-02-15T16:44:52.923-06:00@ Anonymous 3:35
it isn't a poll of likely GO...@ Anonymous 3:35<br /><br /><i>it isn't a poll of likely GOP primary voters but a poll of regular republican voters</i><br /><br />Wrong. It's likely GOP primary voters.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15913245096162048743noreply@blogger.com